Fri 5 Aug 2005
Bang! Bang! A knock on the door, another big bang and you’re down on the floor
Posted by Jeff under Jeff's Thoughts[14] Comments
Yesterday (actually I think it was early this morning) I learned of the existence of a petition to cancel PDEng.
PDEng and I have not had a very good history so far, but I’ve come to accept it and it’s intent. Despite having many flaws, the administration seems now to be trying to mend some of them. It’s a work in progress, and being the first class to complete it was bound to run into them. My main concern with this latest attack is that it won’t gain any credibility (just like asimilar one that was recently hatched). When you look at the petition there are many glaring problems with it. First of all, the page title, “PDEng Sucks”. When I first viewed the page, at the end of the petition it said “Sincerely, The Engineering Class of 2009″. I’m happy it is now changed to “Sincerely, The Undersigned” as the old conclusion was misleading and unfair to my Class. Not everyone in my class is opposed to PDEng, and it is unfair to misrepresent us. The webmaster has set up a blog on the site discussing the progress.
“The Undersigned” doesn’t add much credibility either. When you view the signatures (which in less than a day have went from 31 to 142) you see many comments that are going to make the petition not be taken seriously. Comments range from “I like cheese… and cheese is good” to “I HATE PDENG!!!!!!!!!!!” to even more vulgar comments. (Note some of the comments are noteworthy, though have been brought up countless times before) I will predict (as I did in the past attempts) that this latest attack will fail. The credibility of the petition does not exist, and the concerns that it brings up are not new. The administration has already responded to these specific points in the past and will act the same way that they have done then. Sure…it will give the illusion that people are accomplishing things, but it will not happen. The University of Waterloo will not cancel PDEng. It is here to stay.
The real question that came into my head after I viewed this was “Who is spearheading this latest attack?”. In fact, it is a Software Engineering student from the graduating class of 2009. (same graduation year as me) I find it interesting how easy it is to find out who is behind these websites. On the actual petition signing page, he has his name, but I never saw it until later. So when I didn’t know who the person was, I did what any webmaster would do: I ran a domain inquiry on GoDaddy and pulled up the domain that the petition is hosted on’s information. After I found out his name (and home address, phone number and personal email) I then ran a UWDir search on him to find out his program and university email. Next to Google: where I found his website (hosted off the university), along with all his local contact info, career history, UW ID and even his personal interests! (French Horn…it actually made me gain a little respect for him) This may seem a little creepy, but in reality it only took me 2 minutes to learn a great deal about the person. And this is information that is widely available to anyone who knows how to do a search.
With all this info about people just waiting to be accessed by anyone who feels the need to put in a few minutes of scanning search results. This kind of flow of information leads to fraud, crime and future embarrassment for some people. This individual just recently purchased the domain the petition is hosted on. Soon, when you google the site, the PDEng petition will come up before his main site (when you currently google it you find his blog). He just scarred his whole domain . Many employers will look at the petition and draw conclusions about the individual. No one wants an employee that is prone to protesting. You have to watch what you post on your website, because anyone can find it once it’s out. A recent example (read:mistake on my part) was when I posted my resume with my contact info and university ID. Google picked it up and then anyone could see my info. It was just too easy! The real pain was Google Cache which held the old page for a while after I changed the web page. Not until Google spidered through the site again that the cache updated with the new info.
Exam wise, Algorithms went good. It was an interesting exam. Two more, and a whole weekend to learn the material 
Edit: Please note that many of the problems I identified have been addressed since this entry’s initial posting.
Currently Listening to: “Black Balloon” – Goo Goo Dolls
People still don’t get it, do they? Yeah, there are still major flaws in the implementation, but the university’s not just going to get rid of the program. It would be far more productive to just do as Mike, yourself and a few others did and offer suggestions. Besides, if you take a look at the “Top 10″ petitions at the main site http://petitiononline.com/…no one’s going to take this thing seriously.
P.S. Do your comments support HTML/BBCode?
I noticed that petition as well. And I agree with what you think about it, especially since some of the comments are immature and counterproductive. It seems hard enough to me for the administration to take us seriously on the topic of PDEng, and comments like that only make problems worse for everyone.
And I ended up finding out who this guy was as well. It really is far too easy to find out all that information.
Hello,
I am the, now infamous, creator of the petition. I got this website through a fellow Software Engineer of my class. I’d like to just make a few points to clarify some of the information you wrote.
First of all, in no way did I attempt to censor who I was. As you have stated, my name is clearly for viewing at the bottom of the petition. My name is plastered all over the domain registration, and my address, phone number, and UW Student ID are all over the Internet. Am I disturbed? No. No student in their right mind would leave their system password as their student ID. As long as you take the necessary steps (as I have), fraud at UW with the student ID is very difficult, short of someone actually thieving my WatCard. If you had e-mailed me at pdeng@tridiumstudio.net, I would have gladly replied using my Gmail account.
As I have said repeatedly, I set up the website to represent, as a whole, the large majority of students that are opposed to the frivolous and seemingly useless information that the university would like to convey to us. The comments on the petition may lack professionalism, but then again, their names speak enough for their dissatisfaction.
Your supporters and you continually bring up the point that the course is constantly improving and is not a perfect program, but with the obviously large number of complaints with the 4-stream PDEng15 and now the 8-stream PDEng15, I ask, when are these changes going to take place? I am very disheartened that UW would use the Class of 2009 as a guinea pig year as well as make the program a requirement for our graduation. Why do you think they didn’t allow the course to be run similar to the Ontario Literacy Test (1st year was a mock run, does not affect graduation requirements)? Because there would be absolutely no participation. The only reason that people do it is because they have to.
In regards to “I have scarred my domain”, I have to disagree. I think it would have lent itself less credibility if I had hosted on Tripod or Geocities, and it would have been a conflict of interest had I hosted it on the university’s servers. Employers will not be so shallow as to see “Wow, this person is a shit starter, we won’t select him.” I was for the war in Iraq, does that make me a liability? What if I had protested against the war and wrote that down? Would I evoke dissention among a company’s ranks if I were hired? Please, I would like to be enlightened as how I have “scarred my domain”. If anything, I will have created lovely PR for when my portfolio goes live. Feel free to check it out in a couple weeks.
Now for some technicalities – obviously I’m from the graduating class of 2009. Anyone entering UW next term has no knowledge of the details of PDEng (many don’t even know they will have to take it) and anyone in an upper year does not have to take it, therefore they don’t care.
Many supporters of PDEng (or at least those that aren’t against it) have denounced the movement saying it is ‘childish’ and ‘unprofessional’. I have done my best to update my website accordingly, taking into account the suggestions offered.
I offer you a suggestion now – instead of saying that the program is flawed and they’re constantly improving it, write to your fellow classmates how PDEng is improving your value as a co-op student. No one has told me the benefits of PDEng yet. None of the e-mails I’ve received have said that they are more professional.
Justify to your peers how spending upwards of 3-4+ hours a week on seemingly trivial assignments will benefit their abilities, because in the same time, I could be learning C# or something similar to bolster my resume. Instead, I am learning qualities that I have learned, by myself, over the past six years of working outside of the co-op program. Life experiences cannot be taught, they must be experienced.
I have done my best to present my opinions and thoughts of PDEng in a professional and polite manner. I have outlined my qualms with the program articulately, but at every turn, these points are not being addressed. The movement itself is being attacked, not the content.
I look forward to hearing your reply.
By the way, I like the colour scheme and functionality of your website. Good job.
I’m inclined to be sympathetic toward the poor guy, since it could just as easily have been me in that position. (Although I probably would have posted a “draft” for several weeks before accepting signatures… and I would have rolled my own instead of using PetitionOnline.)
The biggest problem with the whole nasty business is knowing how much to censor. I discussed this a little bit on my own blog.
Richard,
I must say that I find you a very intriguing character. You are obviously very intelligent and gifted. The way you conduct yourself IS very professional and I’ve very glad that you found my site and were willing to continue this conversation with us. Blogs are meant to be discourse indusing, not broadcasting.
I didn’t think I implied that you censored your name at all, I in no way meant to show disrespect to you or imply anything of the sort. The opinion I expressed in my blog was on criticizing the actual petition. As you may note that I mentioned some of the credibility issues in the original petition (which I might add that you have mostly fixed). Unfortunatly you have not been able to see the discussions on my class forum where we have debated these issues for months. I personally had a great deal of reason to hate PDEng myself. I didn’t learn anything. I had my work report done before those assignments even came up (And got Outstanding I might add) and was accused of an academic offence because of same IP address with my roommate (which I was later proven innocent of..after being declared guilty). So I too have not been pleased with PDEng.
Just because I don’t believe that the program has yet helped me do I believe that it should be cancelled. That is the conflict we are having, and where our opinions differ. I have been working (as many others) with MacGregor to attempt to improve PDEng, and yes, changes HAVE happened. It takes time, but it is getting better. While the lessons are useless to me at this time, later lessons on ethical situations will be extreamly useful while preparing for your P.Eng tests.
You comment implies that I have done nothing myself to try to improve PDEng, and talk to fellow classmates. That is quite the contrary. I have been explaining to my entire class the benifits of it (many won’t be until later, though my experience is many people NEED them now). I have been in email correspondance with a few incoming MTE ‘10 students and have discussed PDEng with them. I’m sorry that a similar discussion has not occured on your forum, but I can ensure you that many of my fellow students and I have been working to improve PDEng from the inside while keeping our class informed. (Example: Mike was on a team of students working to improve the nasty blogs)
I don’t think you or I benifited from PDEng 15. That said, that doesn’t mean we won’t benifit from 25,35,45 or 55. It’s unfortunate that we were the first class and are the ones being hit by all these problems, but my experience with the administration is that they are genuinely attempting to fix it. The points listen on your petition ARE being addressed, as I have witnessed them myself. PDEng should not be cancelled (again, my opinion) and I’m quite confident that it will not be.
Oh, I missed the “scarred” domain comment. This is how I view it. I personally would never host such a petition on my domain, as I believe that it may have negative consequences. I may be wrong (because I’ve never done it), but I’d rather not take the risk. You are a very bold and charismatic character to go through with it realizing that it may have negative effects, or may produce positive effects. It’s a matter of ideals. I believe you lean to the optimistic side of beliefs, while I lean to the pragmatic side. Just a difference in personal philosophies I believe. (BTW, I will be checking out your portfolio, as you seem like a very bright man who will have interesting stuff to view)
Oh, thank you for the website comment. Lots of the credit goes to Mike though. Feel free to email me anytime. (Email link on my name at the bottom of any page)
P.S. It seems I’m getting incoming links from the Software Engineering Forum, I’d be interested to view the posts about me and my site.
Richard,
I think, secretly, a lot more folks than admit it would like to see PDEng cancelled completely… but it simply is quite obvious that that’s not happening. The school has already invested in it; they’ve advertised it to alumni, employers, and in the Dimensions newletter. Some of that hype may even turn into licensing the content and system to other schools.
So it’s not just going to disappear.
What’s the second-best approach? Rather than ask for cancellation (which will be ignored), identify specific problem-areas and try to deal with them. I tried to help out with the logs this past term. And in the coming term, I’m going to try to submit my assignments directly to the Mentors’ office in CPH rather than through the system. Others have identified MacGregor as being herself the source of some issues.
I really don’t know what (if anything) has changed, so I can’t comment on how much good my various effort have been/will be. But at least I’ve tried… and so have you, in a different sort of way.
I agree with the petition and its principles, the main reason being that I believe PDEng is an extremely bad idea. Not only has it become the first ever mandatory course during a work term, it’s trying to teach professionalism through weekly written assignments. This petition is a protest against this new, in many ways redundant workload that us engineers (and most likely the rest of the future co-op students) are being forced to take on. Yes, it might be only a few hours per week, but failing an assignment effectively doubles that time. This is our co-op term; we deserve a break. A formal, public protest like this petition is perfectly valid in my mind. Those who don’t agree with it don’t need to sign it.
If you didn’t hear, there was already a formal senate appeal to make PDEng not mandatory. It failed (one of the links in my blog). That was already a formal public process (and all the senate proceedings are availiable to anyone). There seems to be too many fragmented attacks on PDEng that are amounting to no progress. I never implied that people who believe that this is the approach they want to take should not. It’s just my opinion that it’s not going to amount to anything. Just like the last formal protest to PDEng.
Jeff, you and I disagree when it comes to the intent of the program. I do not agree that because we’re a year younger entering university, we are that much more immature; so much more that it requires us to take a program to bolster our professionalism. I don’t think that explaining how we’re going to deal with someone else’s trivial problem (like many of the stupid escapades of the blog characters) will help us solve our own problems.
I’ve known what type of people that I like to be with in a team. I know what part of a team I am. I don’t need an animal representing me. We’ve all had bad groups in high school where we just want to axe the person that does no work. Experiences like this refine our abilities to work with other people. It evolves us the ability to discern which individuals will complement our learning strategies. These CANNOT be taught by a book and will never be taught accordingly.
Ah, the simplicity and accuracy of good ‘ol trial and error.
I guess the best outcome I’d settle for would be to make this non-mandatory for the class of 2009. But we both know that’s not going to happen. We’re going to have to toil upwards of 300 hours over the next five work terms. 300 hours spent writing retarded articles and responding to equally as retarded characters in blogs. There is NO way that this program can be fixed to accomplish what it originally set out to do.
Now who’s the pessimist?
I’m not sure I follow. What exactly do you believe is the intent of the program and what do you think your interpretation of the intent differs from mine? What I believe the intent is, is that it is an attempt to prepare us for work place situations and preparation for your future P.Eng examinations and career endeavors. I think the “intent” of PDEng is based on very good intentions. Suffice to say, those intentions have not been successful. They may never be, but there is a good chance something will come out of it.
I never even considered that they would be doing the program because we are younger. I’ve never heard that even given as a reason for PDEng’s implimentation. I mentioned that I believe PDEng 15 was worthless for both of us. The same details you described apply to me as well. On reading the descriptions of the later PDEng courses I believe somewhere, mixed in with stuff that I don’t need to know, there will be a few things that will be benificial.
As I mentioned, an appeal was launched to make PDEng non-mandatory. A link to the ruling can be found here. The senate won’t be considering something they’ve already ruled on. While your last comment may be a little pessimistic, you must see that there is the possibility of something small coming from the courses. If even one activity helps you work through an ethical dilema that appears on the P.Eng exam, then it was worth it. We will just have to suck it up and hope that it wasn’t as bad as 15. There are many courses I hate to take, but they are mandatory and I do them. PDEng should be viewed the same way.
(Still no one has told me what was written on the Software forum…)
What I believe the intent of the program is is to teach ‘professionalism’. The preparation of the workplace situations is a weak argument because the university has taught us WRONG information about how to deal with situations.
Case in point: If I heard a racist joke at work, the university wants me to tell the joke teller that I was offended by it and then file a complaint with HR. Either of these cases are unrealistic and will sabotage any chance of me developing any sort of workplace camaraderie. It would create animosity between everyone else and me. My suggestion of you laugh it off because the co-worker’s not going to start the Fourth Reich (not phrased that way explicitly) was rejected by the university. I had to redo the assignment, give the “right” answer, then do a make-up assignment for submitting what I would’ve thought to be the real life answer. Sure, we can all be politically correct (PC) in life, but when it comes down to it, you can be PC and get snubbed by co-workers, or you can do what is socially acceptable and as a result, be accepted by one’s peers.
This is but one of the situations where the university will never condone. They will not actively teach you to laugh off racist jokes, but that is the reality of today’s society. They would get severly reprimanded if they condoned this type of response, but in the workplace, that is what is expected. Therefore, because PDEng has to teach you the PC way, it’s actually teaching you the wrong way.
Right now I’ve forgotten all the P.Eng requirements from Module 2. If I choose to become a P.Eng and take the exams, I will be confident that the university, by the end of my five year tenure, will give me the majority of the work experience I required. I will then actively pursue a P.Eng certification on my own. At this point, I don’t even know if I want that certification, so why would it be thrust upon me to learn? I know, I know. Why am I in an Engineering program if I don’t want to become a P.Eng? I don’t know. I can’t justify my choices in this respect. I say this though, I will do what I need to do, when I am ready to do it, and by that time, everything I “learned” from PDEng will have been buried underneath the mass media saturation from FOX and MTV.
Regardless of anything being beneficial to me in “workplace situations” and “P.Eng qualifications”, I honestly and truthfully believe I can do it on my own without the university’s help. I really want to be able to go on a workterm, work a 9-5 shift (with or without overtime) and then go home and relax. I want to go out with friends, go for a walk, and if I want to do anything academic, I can learn a language – on a Wednesday night. I don’t want to be huddled at my computer after 8 hours of being huddled in front of a computer typing away at responses that I morally and personally disagree with, only to get a passing mark and then moving onto the next brainless assignment.
I believe that I have developed my own set of morals and ethics through real life experiences and that if faced with an ethical / moral decision in the work place or on a P.Eng exam, I will know the right thing to do. Not because of some online course, but because I am confident in my judgement abilities as an adult and a human being.
You are quite right. We don’t live in a society where everyone is PC and follows straight ethical steps. While the situations PDEng brings up are common in workplaces, people rarely follow the “most ethical” path. The fact is that the most ethical path isn’t always the best choice (where an entire tengent discussion can break off here at). To pass PDEng and the P.Eng examinations, you must say what is the most ethical approach. To be successful in a career you don’t always so what is most ethical. That is the way our society works. It’s unfortunate, but that is how it is. So I believe we have very similar views on the content of PDEng, just the way we are going about to deal with it is different. The programs we are taking are designed to prepare us for P.Eng certification. That is their purpose. PDEng is within the realm of preparing us for that certification. While some people may never go for their P.Eng, it is understood that that is the objective of all engineering programs. With this in mind, it is easy to see why PDEng has been implimented. While it would be nice to be able to teach workplace skills in school, that is not the real purpose of the program. People with a P.Eng aren’t nessesarily experts in their field. That takes years of experience. PDEng, and all the courses we take are just to prepare us for certification. That is their sole goal.
Dear fellow UW students,
I am a student of the grad year,2010, and surprise surprise, a welcoming course awaited us in our co-op term – PDEng.
The name sounds professional and thats what we expected, a course to put forward values of professionalism and maturity in its students. Beckon the light of a true Engineer and god knows what else. Unfortunately , not so.
For most of co called Frosh like me, this course is a wate of time. No one knows about Senate and gladly dont care. Most have come from all over the country, to study in UW to become an engineer, nothing more, nothing less. Professional development is imperative, but it holds less value after a 8-10 hr work shift when you cook your own meals and sleep becomes your passion.Many students did not even get a co-op job, yet they were supposed to be more “Professional” after this course, appreciating hard work, unfortunately that did not happen either.
Some love to study, spend time working on PDEng, cudos to all of them, but most woudl rather relax a bit after their work, because they have something called personal life.We dedicate outselves in study during our study term, but spending the 3-4 hours after work on some online course, that doesnt hold much engineering spice, sorry to say wont have many supporters. As you might have seen, there have been no petetions for PDEng, and no petetions against the site thats supporting the movent of PDEng Sucks. For a UW Engineer, tools and gears hold pride, not reading blogs of some fictional student nor determining what kind of animal they are, or would like to work with.
Thanks for bearing with me and I gladly hope the course is abolished if not now, but in recent future, because frankly it has a few fans.
Regards
Sean Collins
To all who are frustrated by PDEng:
As I’m getting ready to write the final assignment for PDEng25, I am realizing that, yet again, I have learned almost nothing from the 30 hours I (supposedly) spent on PDEng this co-op term.
What did I learn?
I learned the elements of a needs assessment. It was a very valuable thing to learn, because now, whenever I am given an RFP, I can go through an actual process to come up with a defensible proposal.
What did I not learn?
The whole purpose of PDEng25 was to improve critical analysis skills. Did it do that for me? Firstly, I don’t think such skills can be improved through an online course such as PDEng, but regardless, I don’t think my critical analysis skills have changed at all as a result of PDEng25, whose entire focus was applied critical analysis. To me, it just seems like they’re trying to re-teach the same skills I gained in grade 12 English class in a 30-hour course. You need a full-fledged course on Critical Analysis, not one that is interlaced between lots more hours of work.
To conclude, I think PDEng should be teaching practical, useful concepts that are encountered in the workplace, including ethical issues – I think ethical issues are an important topic that every PDEng course should cover, and to be honest, PDEng25 did not cover such issues at all. In fact, it was worse than PDEng15 in that aspect. Anyway, what I learned from PDEng25 about RFPs and needs assessments will likely be the most useful knowledge for me going forward, so I think the course should teach that, and test us on that, and not on Creative Rhetoric And Posturing (a.k.a. Critical Analysis).
Best regards,
Dan